More moderation of player action?

General Questions
21

The key thread issue isn’t people being assholes to everyone, what you are seeing is people making edgy jokes with each other like saying the “n-word” because it’s edgy, or saying TRAPS ARE GAY because it’s an edgy meme. The main problem being discussed is people find those things offensive and we are discussing how that should be handled.

Let’s simplify this down to a simple question; I have a different interpretation of why people say the things you interpret as racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever, you have a different interpretation and think you and others shouldn’t encounter that because it ruins the experience.

If a chat filter could be developed to filter custom keywords, and contains by default keywords that are racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever, would that solve the issue of you seeing those things?

22

Then don’t make edgy jokes bordering racism/whatever. There’s often no way of telling those apart (if they even are separated), and they’re usually… well… edgy “I said nigger so I’m cool xdddd” jokes.

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23

How about you just filter them out and don’t try and control the jokes people will make regardless of what you do? Use the filter. You never answered the question.

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24

You’re acting like most of it stays in the realm of edgy jokes when it often goes far beyond that in lobby chat. Edgy jokes seem to create an environment where people think it’s okay to express views that really shouldn’t be present in any online game let alone a chill community game like TU. Chat bans happen in a multitude of popular online games and are fairly standard and appropriate response to edgy teenagers. Hell on Xbox Live you’d get a full account ban for the kind of behaviour that happens here on a regular basis. It’s possible to shitpost and meme without racism, homophobia or transphobia. What is being suggested here for the most part (sans the secret moderator stuff probably) is just standard for most online games.

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25

No, not really.
First of all, chat filters can often be bypassed by use of symbols, spaces, etc.
It doesn’t solve problems b) and c).

And lastly, you shouldn’t even be saying words the majority of the population considers racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever. It doesn’t matter if you mean it as a joke, it still comes off as offensive and mean.

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26

Who are you to say what views people can/cannot express, that is a slippery slope that entirely depends on your understanding of both context and correctness, two things that are often subjective. We can probably find mutual standards between us but overall everyone’s standards are varied, yet you have it in you to say that certain views shouldn’t be allowed in any game. How would that effect you if someone who doesn’t share your views says the same about something you believe political or otherwise, or say, a joke you find okay within the context you said it. Do you deserve to be silenced because someone doesn’t share your precise views on morality? Of course not.

On Xbox Live people were far more toxic than they are on TU and I started using the service ten years ago. Ask me how much banning did to change peoples attitudes. Attitudes compel people to speak in a certain way, and if someone disagrees with your attitude of censorship, you foster an attitude in other people that compels them to resist you. Give power to shitposting and people will use it. Let them know you are offended and people will use it. Ban them for saying something because the moderator is sensitive, people will come back, and use it.

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27

Comprehensive chat filters have been and can be developed, maybe chat ban people who bypass the filters then, because only people who are trying to get around filters would do that, but allow standard words that people will find offensive to be said knowing the filter will catch them.

“And lastly, you shouldn’t even be saying words the majority of the population considers racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever. It doesn’t matter if you mean it as a joke, it still comes off as offensive and mean.”

That’s not true, context is important, you aren’t a majority of the online population, and majorities can still be wrong. If you find something offensive, fine. You should have the tools to evade that in a game of this nature, but that doesn’t give you the right to enforce your superior correctness onto others who think differently or say things within a context. Being offended isn’t an argument.

28

The thing is, the only people who consider slur words ok are the people saying them. Most black people don’t enjoy being called “a nigger”, most gays don’t enjoy being called “a faggot”. And in the society, it’s generally accepted that calling them those words isn’t ok.
I mean, you can’t defend those. Political views may vary, opinions may differ, but calling people words specifically created to degrade and insult is undefendable. More so on an official public server of a game.

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29

I’m suggesting the same stuff that is taken seriously by many Western governments, it’s hardly subjective. This doesn’t need to become another safe space for the sensitive racists of the world fam. I used 4chan (among other *chans) over 10 years ago where there was little to no censorship and the quality of the boards have considerably declined (memes are dead to me). Edgy jokes can continue to happen in private circles and communities for all I care but global chats for games that want to be taken seriously will always require some moderation. This is the real world not some anonymous site or private group chat.

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30

The words aren’t the problem at that point. It’s the harassing context they are being used in. For example, you just said the word “nigger” yet you used it in a context that wasn’t designed to denigrate black people. If this was inside the plaza and you said exactly what you said here, do you deserve to be banned over the word “nigger”?

Yet if you were chasing someone down for being gay, and harassing them with the word faggot (read: not calling someone a “faggot” in a more playful context) the context would be totally different, you would be harassing someone. You have to recognize context and not just ban people for the wrong words, because that solves nothing. Ban people for jokes or a statement without context and you just foster an environment that opposes anything that might offend anyone, and works to the detriment of free expression.

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31

That is still very subjective. Just for an example many western governments bomb middle eastern countries as a way of “fighting terror”, they enlarge the problem and create groups like ISIS. The refugee plight facing Europe is also being dealt with in a singular way to the complete detriment of Europeans, yet many western governments take a unified approach to this issue, especially if they are in the EU. This is not objectively correct either, in fact there is a lot wrong with it, because western governments are NOT the arbiters of objective morality. They aren’t even close.

This is no more the real world than an anonymous site is. You are using an alias, your profile picture is not you, you make statements within a virtual game where people using other aliases make other statements under their alias, where they do not get subjected to real world consequences for them because it is not the real world.

Even if it was, so what? China has 1.6 billion people, and a government with its own strong sense of law and what is acceptable, and what is not. Is everything they do correct because a lot of people agree with it, and because they choose to punish free expression harshly? Should we base their morality on theirs because other nations agree with their government, and they subject a lot of people to their own sense of morality? Fuck no.

32

There’s a difference between an edgy joke bordering racism, and using the word as an example. For example, you couldn’t tell if “Josh, you’re a nigger” was meant as a joke or not. If I use it on the forums,in a discussion about the very problem, you can easily tell I’m not harassing anyone.

The goverments have nothing to do with this. Most people in the western world find these words offensive, only the minority that uses them doesn’t. They still aren’t morally defendable. Not using them is a basic part of human respect. They certainly don’t belong on an official server of a game thriving on good community, a game that needs a good public image.

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33

He said “western governments”, I responded to that. They have a huge deal to do with it because they enforce the law and decide what is ethical and what isn’t, and that is not consistent across western governments. Compare Scotland to the US, where a man may serve prison time for teaching his dog to salute to the words “sieg heil” on Youtube. So even in that context western governments vary.

Lots of people find a lot of things offensive and many people don’t, which also varies from nation to nation, and in an online game these people are mixing together. The society nor the social context are identical to the real world, or the community you live in, TU is an independent realm on the internet. Some people will choose not to be respectful one way or another, sometimes I’ll call some of my friends things that are disrespectful on the service but fall under the context of mutual banter. The context is morally defensible, and the fact that words only have the implications you apply to them is also a defensible position, because it’s true. You can be offended at things I wouldn’t bat an eye towards because I see them in a different light, yet the way you see things should control how I speak because “in my society lots of people agree with me.” People in my society also agree with me contrary to you, we’re more liberally spoken including in public, but especially online where Tower Unite is.

With this said, we should advocate for a system that caters to everyone, allowing people to speak unhampered while sensitive people can have the ability to filter out the things that offend them.

Remind me, what was the image of Gmod with it’s often overzealous moderation? Stuck up on edge admins who would ban anyone they disagree with because they can, among many other negative things. What is the reputation of Xbox Live with it’s heavy handed bans? Still negative? Oh. How about a game that allows people to speak freely, doesn’t ban people over the delicate and entirely varied sensibilities of others, whilst allowing players and their families to avoid content they find offensive without having to go to any extra effort to avoid it?

34

@TENTACLE_BOSS how do you manage to discuss a topic like this for so long and the thread isn’t closed yet? I’m jelly af.

Which is why word filters don’t work for people who aren’t offended by words and create a safe space for people that do, sacrificing some context in the process.

A friend of mine was banned from a Gmod-Server instantly for commenting something among the lines of “When you say ‘N-word’ everybody knows you mean ‘Nigger’, why not just say that instead, it’s like the letters themselves are oppressive and not the context it’s used in.” so for some, even the context doesn’t matter.

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35

implying you guys aren’t trying to create a safe space for the reverse.

Also getting salty at random server admins, you can rent your own servers you know, they aren’t expensive. When I used to run a CS:S server in 07 I used to ban people for dumb reasons or for fun on occasion. If you run a server you get to decide what happens on it for the most part. I don’t get how so many people don’t understand how dedicated servers work in online games?

For me personally I’m all for basing it on context, I don’t think that Scottish man should have gotten charged over what was obviously a silly joke and not particularly offensive, I firmly believe in protecting satire. I don’t agree with all the actions of my government but it to some extent companies have to respect local laws in countries where they serve goods, digital goods included. I’m not personally saying bans for the smallest offences but there are plenty of cases where people are being toxic and directly abusive to other users which I don’t think should be allowed. Racial slurs should probably be censored by default. In this day and age you can just use a discord server to racially abuse your friends in private, it’s free so even kids can make their own. I know I abuse the shit out of my friends in discord (albeit not rly racially because I’m not a racist but you guys can :>) and most the banter happens there.

Also the internet is most definitely the real world, and increasingly so as the current (and past) US and UK administrations (among other countries) continue to erode privacy. It’s naive to think we have long left of full anonymity online especially on game services and we have increasingly seen the consequences of such.

I don’t see how a thread about enforcing against people abusing other people has turned into a ‘I’m a white kid on the internet and I should be able to say racial slurs to my friends reeeeee’ because it’s not something I care about whether you do or not. I’m normie enough that I prefer when this stuff stays between the SJWs and alt-right peeps arguing about irrelevant shit on irrelevant websites. It’s possible to want people to not act abusive or toxic to other players without going into the realm of ‘muh free speech’ you know.

36

I could keep arguing, but I honestly feel like this has gone for way too long, and one of us needs to put it down. We clearly see things differently, so it’s not like there’s a point

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37

tfw no green text

38

It’s exhausting, but I think it’s important that the developers see both sides so they cater to their audience without stepping on too many toes. We’ve done that here hopefully.

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39

Sorry for not responding to all of this but I thought I should at least show you that the dog joke arrest is a real thing: http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2017/05/youtuber-count-dankula-could-face-year-in-jail-for-nazi-dog-video.html

Edit: Alright, couldn’t resist, here’s a response.

I understand how it works, I ran a TF2 server for two years, currently run a KF2 server, mostly as single handed endeavors where I managed everything. It’s not a debate as to whether they have the right to ban. They could ban people for wearing the color red, it’s their ip and server, but that’s not what’s being debated. It’s a debate about the productiveness of doing that, for banning people over their speech. I think as a consumer who has a problem with the prospect of censorship my opinion has a degree of weight to it and I’m also in my rights to express why moderating the chat is a bad idea.

What you and I think is ideal in regards to bans is not how they will be enforced, and the line of what’s correct to ban is very blurry. The fact is when you introduce moderators you introduce people with power fantasies who enforce on the basis of their bias, which will no doubt lead to problems unless the moderators are also held to account, with bans being an absolute last resort used in only the most dire cases. (I.e, not just banning people over disagreements, or offensive words.)

The real world influences the internet, they are not the same. Privacy is being eroded but that’s also something I actively fight against and have been doing so for years, the only way privacy will be eroded is if we collectively accept it by allowing people like Theresa May to push their idiotic agenda to compromise the internet because “terrorism.” Just because that is a thing that is happening, it doesn’t mean that it has entirely happened, nor does it mean that it has to get worse, it might get worse, but that’s not set in stone.

It hasn’t turned into “im a white kid”, that’s something you have implied. It’s not about being white, it’s an expression issue. Do you think all black people are against my perspective because of their skin color? Of course not, just in the same way not all gay people are against the word “faggot.”

It’s not about identity politics, it’s not even about racial slurs specifically, my responses are about the consequences of moderation of the chat in games in regards to everything that could get moderated, and the cause and effect relationship censorship has in online games, I believe it is detrimental. So yes, that means if people want to say dumb shit to each other like racial slurs, I prefer people being able to do that to a world where nobody can say anything because we have to protect everyone’s feeling preemptively. If you don’t want to be abusive, don’t be abusive. If you don’t want people to abuse you or others, you have options to not engage with that either, you can mute people right now and the filter is being developed further to net the toxicity you don’t want to see. But don’t use that as an excuse to hamper “muh free speech” however much of a joke you think defending free expression is.

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40

That’s fine, don’t worry. I know it’s a real thing and I think it’s awful. I remember watching the original clip and finding it funny then hearing about the arrest was shocking.